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Squawks en OpschriftenAirlines Face Acute Shortage of Pilots

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Airlines Face Acute Shortage of Pilots

ingediend
 
U.S. airlines are facing what threatens to be their most serious pilot shortage since the 1960s, with higher experience requirements for new hires about to take hold just as the industry braces for a wave of retirements. (online.wsj.com) Meer...

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WtfWtf
WtfWtf 24
60K for college 70k for flight school. 15K to instruct. 20K to fly for a regional. 10 yrs before u make even a baeely livable salary under crushing debt at twice the rates of a mortgage and then some.. no shortage here, just a shortage of blind idiots willing to fall for the scam the regionals created. Now 1500 hr rule and 15 to 20 yrs to a major airline job.. used to be 3 or 4.. hopefully this changes. No reason a pilot should make less than a cab or bus driver or even a pizza delivery guy.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 6
I know that's right....I finally came to the fact that I couldn't justify worrying myself about finishing up....heck I make 40k fueling trucks....if things change I'll come banging down the doors in a heart beat but until then I am just going to enjoy my family hopefully finish up one day.
R123154
R123154 4
Dan,you nailed it friend.I started at the Fixed Base here in 83 and left in 2010.This has been known for years.Yet the FAA has done nothing to make it better.To expensive to earn a commercial then and worse now.I watched those boys and girls and boys struggle so hard working 2 jobs and then trying to instruct to get needed hours.
2 things need to happen as I see it,1 is raise the retirement age and 2 reduce hours needed for right seat time.Training these days is much better than back 30and to 40the years ago for there have been many lessons learned.Just my thoughts.
Tabulavicious
tom lau 3
Raising the retirement age has it's limits. What would they raise it to? 65 is already old, 70 is really old!
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well, there were a lot of good folks got put to pasture early at 60. They raised it to 65 just before I retired, but mine and a whole bunch of other guys retirements and transitions were already planned. I fortunatly have had some opportunity to continue on to 65 but I really wonder about past that. His theory is good but whether practical application would work or not would be the thing. You can ask me about that 70 business in a couple of more years.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
I can speak to it now. If you can pass the physical and other requirements every 6 months or a year, then what does something arbitrary like age have to do with it. Age is a social limit. I've seen folks get OLD at 40 and I've seen young guys at 70. Leadership doesn't necessarily mean heavy lifting.

Ya want good people, you gotta pay um. This new idea that no body is supposed to make a profit is nonsense. Doctors and nurses spend a lot of time and money to qualify to practice, so too pilots and other professionals. If you can't make enough money to pay back loans and compensate you for time spent learning and training then, it's not going to foster an increase in the number of available professionals. Prices will go up and availability will go down. Not much different from gasoline and jet fuel
preacher1
preacher1 1
I know that feelin'as far as the age thing goes. After enjoying 6 months or so here at the house, I am ready to get back in the air on a regular basis. My wife has said she took me for better or worse, not for lunch. While I have kinda enjoyed it, I have bad upset her daily routine and even the dog looks at me funny now cause I'm here all the time.
TXCAVU
Elizabeth Robillard 1
"for better or worse, not for lunch" love that!
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
I wonder how Tom Lau's views will change when he turns 55 or 60. 70 won't look so "really old", I'll bet ya. :-)
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
You're on the money. You can live better as a truck driver. I've often wondered how a newbie makes it if he has to work out of a major aerodrome. You can't afford to live close to where you work and that changes with every route bid. I had an FO friend who flew out of MIA to the UK. He was senior enough to afford a family and live in Maryland. He strained for years not to take the step up to PIC because he would again be junior. He was in his 50's then. Finally, company and union pressure both forced him to move to the left seat. I haven't seen him since.
FedExCargoPilot
FedExCargoPilot 5
You all are missing the point, how about lowering the COST of flying that includes the hourly and educational fee and the amount of time it takes to even be considered for a mediocre flying career.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
Get a look at the costs. Fuel, assets, building, light, HVAC, more fuel, salaries, ... How do you lower costs? Who do you short? The business fatality of flight schools and FBO's rivals the restaurant industry. These business men don't live in a vacuum. If they could reduce costs they would, just to survive.
aerofrag
James Crawley 1
Have you seen the overheads of a flying school?
They are rediculous... Majority are just at break even let alone making a healthy profit
captainjman
Jason Feldman 2
Liability, Insurance, maintenance, competition, dealing with the public (noise, closing airports), taxes, ....

the part that I think too many people is this, just like you cant decide to start paying less on your mortgage, or on your lease payments, or insurance.... you shouldn't look at your employees as a means to balance the business. People need to earn a livable wage.

A better paying job yields better attitudes, healthier living conditions, sanity, etc etc. With all the costs of a business - it truly doesn't cost that much more to pay your CFI's or pilots, etc etc. Just as there is enough money to always pay management their golden parachute - they can jolly well learn to charge that extra XX.XX dollars needed to make it work.

We worked out that an extra 5.00 a ticket on a 50 seater making an average of four flights a day - that would be enough for all employees to make a significant amount more money, benefits and even a solid 401k.

Its all about desire - they don't want to pay us more because if they charged another 5 dollars they want it to go to their pocket - or to the shareholders.

I love capitalism - but one thing stand out to me all of a sudden. A free market and capitalism doesn't necessarily mean a stock market now does it? A public company has to worry about other peoples interests... a privately owned company will do what is right for the employees more often than not.

I think the answer is to stop treating free market like a horse race you can bet on while watching MAD MONEY. The one time benefit of going public, and incremental sale of stock and bonds is so insignificant to the overall health of a company... the corporate culture.. the coldness of a multi-national corp....

When all you start caring about is stock prices - the company is going to cut benefits, cut pay, cut everything. Its time capitalism takes a long hard look at itself - and re-prioritize. Free market doesn't mean wall street... it just means you let economics run its course with as little interference from anything as possible. Sure - we aren't operating Laissez-faire economics here - but yeah- maybe wall street needs to be reorganized under chapter 11 - lower all the bankers salaries and benefits for a change.
chezmonu
Robert Morley 3
I've been in aviation for 18 years. I've always been told of this pilot shortage. THERE'S NEVER BEEN A PILOT SHORTAGE!!! And I seriously doubt there will be one now. In the 80's, Airliners were certified for two pilot operation eliminating 33% of needed pilots. NOW there a two majors manufacturers developing pilotless aicraft. Let's also talk about all the currently unemployed pilots, pilots over 50 that most carriers won't hire. And, as others here pointed out, who in their right mind would be willing to fork out $100K for training for a $20K / year job, if they could Find one!!
FlyBoyDC10
FlyBoyDC10 3
I got out at age 60, after a great and financialy rewarding flying career. My first bankruptcy in 1983, convienced me, there was no future in carrying people. Freight hauling is the place to be today, but as soon as they perfect the drone frieghter, that gold mine will dry up. The predicted pilot shortage is a misnomer. Remotely piloted airliners are the next generation. People will have no other option, because no person in their right mine, is pursuing a flying career today. Forget about being a good pilot and staying healthy. It you don't submit to a search or a piss test, you can't get a job. A sad , sad state in a "Free Society".
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
Were you the chief pilot at National???
FlyBoyDC10
FlyBoyDC10 1
No, not at National (pre PA AM)?
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
Well if a person doesn't want to submit a pee test they obviously have something to hide...If you are clean you have nothing to worry about.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
What's wrong about saying a person has something to hide if they don't want to submit a pee test?....You go in, pee to the mark and you are done.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
It's just not true. I have NOTHING to hide and I neither want to donate the time nor present the opportunity for error, nor give away the privacy that is mine. You are fast to accuse me just because I don't want to allow you the opportunity to make a mistake that I can spend a lifetime correcting at huge expense. I know how easy it is to pee and hardly need your direction. You are quick to give away your freedoms.
FlyBoyDC10
FlyBoyDC10 0
....and what branch of the service where you in? It's all about FREEDOM.
Me da pilot. You do it MY WAY or you take the Highway! I personally own
2 planes. How many do you have? My flying is not based on piss test.
And your ability to Fly should not be also. Think about what you give up
each time you submit. It is a violation of your privacy, Period.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
Well privacy infringment or not you can just as easily loose your job for not submitting a pee test as you can for failing it....I don't know what state yall live in but I know here in N.C. and on my job that a refusal is an automatic fail....I can only speak on what I know but if you refuse and they give you an automatic failure it then becomes your word against theirs.
zcolescott
Zachary Colescott 4
The comments on this article are laughable...people have no freaking clue.
captainjman
Jason Feldman 2
The airlines are not facing a shortage of pilots - they are suffering from acute greediness. I know many of my flying buddies who would rather do ANYTHING than go to a regional or start at the bottom of the seniority list missing every important moment of family life for the foreseeable future.

The airlines make a lot of money, and then use inventive accounting to conceal it. They are just going to have to pay us what we deserve. Like Dan A. Said below- there is a huge investment in our career - not only money but with relationships, missing important family stuff - I don't really want to know what I have invested - But the point is we deserve to have a life... even if you're at the bottom of the list.

When the airlines start offering what the foreign airlines are offering us - then we will talk. Until then - i don't want to hear another peep from those airlines saying they are in trouble not having enough pilots.
steveking17
Steve King 2
The airlines really need to follow the model set by Lufthansa that has a "cradle-to-the-grave" approach. They take pilots with very few hours, hire and train them in the "Lufthansa way," and then they have loyal pilots for years.
DavidLee2992
David Lee 2
Here's my two cents. I'm an 1,800 hour commercial pilot about to interview with the regionals, and I"m scratching my head about the $20,000 I would make at a regional. Simply pay pilots more by charging passengers more. The free market can easily solve this problem without the government. The Asians are doing it. Just look at the ads at Climbto350. I'd guess that the cost of a ticket on a regional would rise by about a dollar, and that would double the pay for a first officer. Whatever the increase, it wouldn't take much. But for the regionals to whine as they are about the "crisis" while paying what they do, it's laughable. There's a political agenda.
laurentfrutin
Laurent FRUTIN 2
Finnaly some work for higher time pilots that didnt get thru because of to many pilots for so many years..Foreigner with FAA licence can get the perspective of work with a 3 year visas etc.. with all the money they spent for training in the US its fair..
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 4
I have an associate who owns and operates a small trucking company. He is always fussing about the lack of drivers and their dependability once hired. He pays significantly less than the market yet can't figure out why he can't attract operators. It's not a hard problen to solve. If you want UPS quality drivers than pay a wage competitive with UPS.
propturnin247
Danny Wick 4
You said you're about to apply right? Knowing you'll make only $20,000 a year right? What incentive is there for airline executives to pay pilots like you who are still willing to apply and fly for such low wages.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Dang Mark, that'll make your rates go up. Who'd a thunk it.lol
teix62
Michael Teixeira 1
I rather be unemployed
teix62
Michael Teixeira 1
oh by the way I am unemployed. Where is the pilot shortage. Send me in that direction please. ATP, CFI,II,MEI,Advanced ground, instrument ground instructor, Typed in Lear 45 2200 hrs jet, and 6000 hours total time. Been waiting for a real pilot shortage for 30 years. As long as there are pilots making crap salaries there will never be one.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
And they say economics is hard :-)
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 3
I heard from one of our drivers that a friend of his who works for UPS Freight and takes a pay cut every three years because of the so called union and their bargaining skills...Sounds to me that if you work in any field that includes being a part of a union you are going to eventually get screwed in the end.
teix62
Michael Teixeira 2
And there are many more like me in the same situation
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
Sir, there are no accounting loopholes to hide the profit you are talking about. They will pay what they have to for qualified pilots and not a penny more. My feeling is that it will be a lot less than in days gone by simply because there are plenty out there to sign up for the job. In case you haven't noticed, wages have dropped across the board. I seriously doubt a real shortage but any gains derived from a shortage will be short lived. That said, I am all for the pilots but reality is just that. The airline wars keep this a market in turmoil with no big winners in the wage department. Good luck to all pilots and happy landings.
teix62
Michael Teixeira 1
Very well put.
captainjman
Jason Feldman 1
Wallace,

You are probably right about the shortage being short lived since I lived through a small one and didn't really notice. However - it is possible that there will be a shortage this time because the new rules in place requiring 1500hrs - this will impact mostly the regionals - because now it will be harder for pilots to prostitute themselves since they need the 1500 hours in the first place and MANY flight schools no longer hire time builders and are choosing career CFI's.

As far as loopholes you're absolutely incorrect. I studied airline economic practices. Airlines (like other corporations)are required to show at least one profitable quarter every so many years. They will do anything to only show a profit to keep from getting in trouble. They will use normal tricks like claiming a lump sum of depreciation during exceptional quarters but also like to create shell corporations that buy the ground servicing equipment (etc etc) and then charge themselves an extremely high interest rate (say 75%) and this hide large amounts of money- only to show one profitable quarter in every so many years.

Aircraft interiors for instance will be upgraded based not on a periodic service life - but based on when they need to show or hide income. That was just done at my former employer for instance - about 2 years ago - when management wanted to tell the pilots they needed to work more for less pay - and didn't want the pilot group to notice the extra 5million in the bank at that time.

There are litterally hundreds of these shell games - used to either not pay taxes or their employees properly. This was seen at several airlines - but best example is American or USAir where pilots, mechanics and mx workers were asked to cut their own income to save the company from certain demise. Later that same year nearly 50 percent of the 1.5 Billion (that's with a B not an M) was then paid out to upper management as bonuses.

Airlines are big business - and as such have a lot of corporate lawyers ensuring they pay the treasury as little as possible, while hiding as much money as possible from employee unions - and.telling employees that they are greedy in order to nickel and dime the employees as much as possible. And when those companies make lots of money - the wages never fully come back up. Yes - you can be sure all those high paid lawyers they keep on retention are there to do more than fight against ladies spilling hot coffee on their laps (think mcdonalds)

For a CEO of any company to make tens of millions of dollars plus bonuses - while employees are forced to take pay cuts WILL become a lot less viable in the upcoming years.

While captains with 15 years seniority are no longer making 240-300,000 a year in the US - somehow airlines overseas seem to pay first year captains on an A320 - 18,000 per month. Let's not BS here - there is plenty of money in aviation - and the airlines can and will pay better in the future because

1. The inherit risk involved
2. The unstable job market
3. The long trips away from home
4. Many pilots are becoming disenfranchised
5. The often bad work rules / conditions

Flight schools arent pumping out as many pilots as they used to - and there is a larger and rapidly growing world population. Do the math and it spells one thing

Airlines will have to pay pilots what they are worth because now that most of the glory and fun has been squeezed out of aviation - less and less people are willing to do this as a career.

And with all the BS the airlines do to the pilot group - it still pales in comparison to what we do to ourselves - racing to the bottom - willing to fly for nothing - just let me build time - every job should be paid a living wage. If we didn't prostitute ourselves they couldn't take advantage of our love of aviation. We gotta stick together - all of us. The 747 pilots should care about the CFI's - and everything in between. Just because we love what we do doesn't mean we should give it away for free. Part of that is learning the airline BS tactics do we stop falling for them. I do care for all the pilots - I listened to this speech when I was a 230 hour commercial - and I didn't pay to play. Now I see new guys tripping over themselves , getting in line to do it. But I still have a hunch that there will be a shortage - in part due to age 65 and in part due to 1500. If you aren't blocked by either end of that spectrum you should get a benefit out of this wave. Except for me since I have several spine injuries and may never fly again (among other things)

Ps - it's time for us all to stick together - have universal seniority and a single collective bargaining entity - like the long shore man for example. You'd gen a number assigned upon receiving your comm. and with a well thought out program ensure none of us have to live to work rather than Work to live.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
Bankrupt airlines can't pay their bills and stockholders and financiers are screwed. If there was lots of money there they would find it. Hope you are right about the pilots getting a good turn.
captainjman
Jason Feldman 1
These are two different discussions. My hope is thAt pilots will get paid properly for all we go through In our career - the unstable nature of the deregulated airline industry - with hazard pay because of hijacks and possible shoot down by our own government - the time away from home - the cost of training and the hoops we have to jump through - etc etc.

Regarding companies hiding money - let me put it to you this way. Those large institutions investing in airlines that have consistently lost money. Why do you think that happens?

Or another view - the way you build your layered legal existence - c-corp , s-corp etc - makes you more immune to lawsuits etc. when you hide billions you don't keep the money in the same c-corp so that when bankruptcy is granted that other money is GONE. Just like corps avoid making large tax payments - just like people use tax shelters - just like estate planning keeps more inheritance from landing in the hands of the IRS. These companies don't have entire legal teams and accounting departments because they like employing people - its all a shell game.

In bankruptcy (bk) you have to pay all your debts. When many of the debts are paid to shell corporations - it hides the main companies money - but in fact stays in the same family of companies owned by the airline. If department A pays department B - it still resides within main company accounts. - that is one of the ways airlines hide money. United may lease ground equipment from ABC holdings- at an inflated interest rate of let's say 75% per year, while paying only 8% to buy the equipment themselves. Now, if ABC holding were not affiliated with the airline - then the airline would call that lease agreement a loss. So, the main airline creates another seemingly seperate company and pays themselves - but it seems like they are paying a seperate company. But somewhere out there - there is a master register showing the true holdings of all the umbrella holdings. That ledger shows the true profit - but it is so big - and so complicated - and so corrupt that it will most likely never come to light.

They do this so that they can tell their employees they can't pay them a fair wage, or ask for BK so they can sever their contractual agreements and Collective bargaining agreements. Since employees are the highest cost- that isn't a fixed cost - they use this to wratchet down the income and benefits of their employees.

Those shell companies end up paying taxes - but the airlines save billions by cutting pay and benefits - and to end any contract they no longer like.

Just like the banks outsmarted our government into those bailouts - (I used to be a mortgage banker so trust me- I k ow) - so are the airlines pulling a fast one in BK. no company or industry could still be in operation after all these years posting an overall huge loss. And no investor would invest in these airlines either.
clipper759
joe johnson 3
Ah, yes the pilot shortage. The Leprechaun I have coffee with has got 4100 total & 2000 Jet and says Eagle and the rest of them can kiss his a**.
Pileits
Pileits 2
The Harvard educated MBA's will continue to ruin the airlines as long as the airlines let them do so.
The MBA career model now days is pack your golden parachute as FULL as you can and leave in 5 years or less if you've already bankrupted your airline or company.
Dontay
Don Taylor 1
Dan A. just decribed my life. Except I went to Embry Riddle so I am well over 60K.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
I doubt a real shortage for any length of time. The reason is that flying a commercial airplane is a really cool job and a real attraction to many regardless of pay. Yes, there are downsides, one being away from family on holidays and other occasions. In reality, many jobs entail these same downsides. Lots of businesses operate 7/24 and lots of jobs mean not just working a shift but being totally gone for any occasion. I hope all pilots can achieve a living wage but doubt they will ever get to the level in an era gone by.
m20fdriver
Dale Denisar 1
Look past the trees and see the forest boys and girls The so called shortage is just the opening salvo in a campaign by the majors to drop the recently legislated tougher standards. How?. We get our buddies in the Wall Street Journal to write a doom and gloom article about the forthcoming "pilot shortage". Add in their other friends in the media (remember the line in the Godfather?) to beat the "shortage" drum. The lobbyists then take over and work their magic with the Washington pols (especially the ones on the aviation subcommittees) who enjoy their relationship with airline lobbyists and their campaign contributions. Watch for these quasi-criminals to introduce legislation rescinding the newer standards. Lower standards = lower hours = younger less experienced pilots = "I'll work for less".
daveroeser
David Roeser 1
The Jet Blue guy said that he is worried about the availability stream of pilots and aircraft maintenance professionals. There will be no shortage of workers for the company that provides good union jobs for both maintenance and pilot groups.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
It's still all driven by supply and demand. In the 80's the oil industry got rid of 100's of thousands of oil field workers and imported cheap oil. Today an able bodied high school dropout can get a job in the oil fields making over 100k. Too many airlines and pilots for anybody to make big $ today. And yes the airline execs make too much money, but just like our elected officials they are in charge of their own pay. Lol
Yankee1
Robert West 1
Wow, I'd better get my goggles and leather jacket out of the trunk and spiff them up. Maybe I can get get some new hearing aids after I get the cataract surgery paid for. Is MR. Curtiss still building aircraft.? I wonder if the F, A and A will reopen my pilot's license?
smoki
smoki 1
It will be a case of robbing peter to pay paul as military aviation will be robbed of experienced pilots opting out for commercial airline jobs. It's been a revolving door in the past and sounds like the door is about to start whirling again. Given the CnC with which all of our military people have to serve now the decision to jump ship will be made that much easier.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
You mean " cheaper" tickets. When airlines started selling them at a price where there is no profit that is a corporate "fail".
distar97
Dennis Harper 1
In 1969-70 I was paying $30/hour and that included seasoned instructors not just climbing a ladder. Mind you this was at LaGuardia. At the time it was costly but I wanted to learn at a big airport. Today's economic model for learning and earning are so warped and twisted compared to those days.
aerofrag
James Crawley 1
I'm a Pilot in training in the UK and just want to add a few cents, yes those accidents were down to inadequate flying skills, not hours, making the community have a vast amount more hours is likely to push the standard up but makes it cost ineffective.
I would have suggested raising the hours slightly and proposing a harder Commercial test or Instrument rating, focusing more on the actual flying skills than just flying to pass the test or using a GPS.
Just my two cents
Mnewbery
Matthew Newbery 1
In Australia there will be no shortage while rich families continue to purchase their children an airline job. It's possible that all the suitable pilots will be lured overseas then eventually the will be a problem. Currently there are ten years worth of suitable pilots waiting to fly in an airline. I can't see that changing soon
DaveBFlying
Dave Klem 1
This is all part of Ronald Reagan's deregulation scheme to sell the general public cheaper tickets. As stated in the comments below, wannabe's are wising up. I love how corporate labels it all as "paying your dues." You can go on line and watch a documentary entitled
"Flying Cheap" for free here. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flyingcheap/view/
MervT
Merv Thornton 1
With what the airlines and their "STOCKHOLDERS" are concerned, an actual highly qualified pilot is nothing more than just another part of the planes as the wings and landing gear are.
They don't give a damn what a qualified pilot has had to endure to earn the left seat just so long as they know how to retract the landing gear, and we all know once the gear is up the "STOCKHOLDERS" are making money.
ccarlson3
Curt Carlson 1
It's all timing. Get in at the front end and your carreer is great. Get stuck at the end of hiring and it sucks...
COYOTEHUNTER
COYOTEHUNTER 1
You said it all, Dan A.
In 1970 I bought primary block-time for $12/Hr, wet. Instructor was $13/Hr. so $25/Hr and they let me wash planes for ground school. Pvt/Inst/Comm/CFI for around $3500 total. Just try to find an FBO that will let you work off training today. Many FBO's liability insurance requires you to be on the payroll, Etc., Etc. All of the comments written here have great merit. I am hoping for the sake of aviation community that some good old L-R-C-S can be brought into the problems we as an industry face today. I wish all you young pilots the very best. BTW => L-R-C-S = Logic-Reasoning-Common Sense
captainjman
Jason Feldman 1
You're entitled to your opinion - and I'm entires to tell you how wrong you are. Lol

Plain and simple - contracts maintain pilot pay.
Many pilots left aviation and refuse to come back
Flight schools have been pumping out less students - for a long time too
Just like the foreign carriers they will have to raise pay to attract enough people

The 1500 rule may need to be lowered just for the airlines to survive - while still raising pay

History repeats itself - when there werent enough pilots in the past - airlines hired folks off the streets and trained them to be pilots. It won't be this big this time - but it will require increase in pay, benefits - and work rules.

Sorry to burst your management bubble - the days of airline greed are gonna come full circle my friend.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 2
Most military pilots are staying put because it is actually more stable....Plus the thought of having to be FAA certified after building mountains of flight time isn't very appealing.
R123154
R123154 1
Sad also is the fact that alot of FBO like where I worked eliminated their flight schools because of rising maint. cost and plus they got into handling transit aircraft, business a/c,freight and everything they can which is way less painful than having to deal with the cost of operating 5 aircraft.Oh those were the days of flying 2 barons 5 nights a week hauling checks which gave the right seater 3.5 hours of twin time.Quite a deal for him or her and for the company.
If you were lucky and loads were light then you could ride in the back with thechecks
captainjman
Jason Feldman 1
Deregulation and paying dues are two separate things. There is no question that dereg was a disaster - but so are some of the prima donnas out there who think the world owes them something. The kinds of guys who show up for a job and refuse to fly a turbo-prop because they want jet time. The kind of guys who roll their eyes when they have to help clean the plane in 91k - or give the safety briefing.

No - I like the idea of folks paying their dues. We don't need a bunch of folks who expect their entitlements, the ones who demand to upgrade because its been a full year - the ones who think that the world owes them something.

I wish I could have been military, but I had a medical issue. And yeah- I think the military is a great place to pay your dues. If you haven't served your country and think you should captain a jet right out of flight school because daddy paid for the Mesa Pilot Development program (etc etc) - and PURCHASED an interview with only 250 hours under their belt... yeah - I'm sorry folks - you gotta pay your dues. And finally, thank god, to fly for an airline you need 1500 hours!

No, I didn't get to pay my dues in the armed forces - but I flew cargo at night, I instructed bratty kids, I created an internship program for myself at a 135 cargo outfit - helped run the place, clean the planes and build some multi time -and got a job flying caravans before I even graduated. Some of my fellow classmates did nothing for years - fighting over the same CFI job postings - and when I got hired at a regional with 2600 hours I felt like I was barely experienced enough to fly 90 people in a 47 million dollar airplane. ... let alone a kid with 250 who is "Gordon Cooper" - just ask him !

Im not saying that low hour pilots aren't good at what they do. I'm not saying they aren't smart enough to shoot an approach, but you gotta pay your dues one way or another in this business. And those who cut corners - cross picket lines, create freedom airlines... they are NOT forgotten. That easy route ends up being the hardest route in the long run.

Dave, I gotta lay down man- my back is killing me.... but I'll tell you this - I never once heard a single passenger upset about seeing a bald spot or grey hair. Now, if only we can remind our employers the difference between the FO on the KLM flight at Tenarife - and Sully (despite being sick of hearing about him all the time)... but there is a hell of a difference@
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
teix62
Michael Teixeira 1
Been there done that and no job. Thank you.
captainjman
Jason Feldman 1
Keep trying - its out there. I needed multi time and I didn't get the multi time building class at SIUC that I was promised - I wrote real letters (not emails) to over 1200 outfits in the US - and created an internship since I didn't get chosen for the United internship that I was promised either- per my contract with them as an instructor. I know the frustration out there - I had two contractual promises that never came through. . I busted my ass to just get my foot in the door. And I kept busting my ass till I got it. The company I did this with, Corpjet out of Georgia was so happy with me they kept the program. Every other intern refused to wrk as hard so they shut down the program. So you can thank fellow low hour pilots for being prima donnas.

All pilots need to help the low hour pilots - I hope to get a movement started. It's in everyone's best interest to help the lowest guy on the totum pole. If you undercut to get your foot in the door, you not only hurt experienced pilots - but yourself too. When you get to your career position you will loose millions because of the undercutting you helped create.

I have and will always help low hour pilots find a position. If you need help email me.

Think of it this way - lets say it takes you 5 years to get in, but when you do you'll make 25-33 percent more. You could have worked full time all three years as a pilot but when you got to your career carrier you made less - you would have lost much more than if you take a non pilot position and pick up hours over 5 years and then enter a career position not effected by people cutting corners and thus lower wages in a race to the bottom.

And since my flying career is most likely done due to my spine injuries - I have no reason to lie to you - I gain nothing.

But as a whole - pilots must stick together - and put an end to these issues once and for all
DeltaAirlinesTristar
Lockheed Tristar 1
They need to reduce the price of the schools and the amount of hours needed. If they do it their will be alot of applicants. For now the shortage will just continue to grow.
KW10001
Kylan Walters 0
Starting a civil career in aviation is just not worth it anymore.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 7
It's going to be worth it for the people coming out of high school soon. I say screw college, screw those a hole recruiters and interviewers that are looking for their type, I told the interview panel at an airline that I don't give canned answers, what u see is what u get, EXPERIENCE and a solid common sense STICK and RUDDER PILOT. They probably didn't like that because I never got called. I say to hell with hiring people based on gender and ethnicity. Put all applicants in the f ing sim and see who could do an NBD approach with a howling crosswind, then hire them... oh I forgot, on one engine...
preacher1
preacher1 4
You really infringing on my Preachin' but you doing a good job, so just keep it up.lol On the same line, the airlines are going to have to do as rail and truck have been doing for years, train their on, in return for a guaranteed work time contract, or there are going to have to be some private entitys;i.e colleges, flight schools, that offer the courses and time that leads to a direct Airline hiring path. Needless to say the money is going to have to come up. I got out at 60 after a wonderful 135 job, but they don't grow on trees.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
actually a lot of trucking companies are going to 3rd party trainers too.....don't know anything about rail.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
Damn, I always thought the money tree was real, like the tooth fairy...
preacher1
preacher1 2
Rail is pretty much in house as far as I know as there are not enough opportunity outside like in small trucking companies, to gain any experience and as with the Airlines, there is so much federal regulation, even on the little non union shortlines.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
A friend of mine down the street left a prison job for the rail making 6 figures for Norfolk Southern...
preacher1
preacher1 2
It's there, and from what I understand, they don't have to advertise. They figure that the ones that come to them have a desire to RR. Hours can be crappy and you are just a body, but the unions are strong; everybody knows the rules and the $ is there.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 3
good jobs don't have to advertise
FedExCargoPilot
FedExCargoPilot 2
Great point, I feel this should apply to all fields.
conmanflyer
connor oslie 2
I'll need to get my more modern hours, roughly 95% of mine are in aircraft older than 50.
preacher1
preacher1 3
I see by your profile that you have gone on from student to private. Hang in there!!
gearup328
Peter Steitz 1
We don't do that anymore. Even on checkrides, use of the autopilot is encouraged. We "manage" the flight now. I always liked being the PF on emergencies--it's the easiest position. Use the PNF like insanity. Of course, there's always some hand flying and raw data stuff. What if the autopilot fails?
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
And on a short wet runway...
madogdriver
robert coffey -1
shortage? 1500 hrs. hmm. ok thats 2 years of flight instructing. next problem. at 6 plus bucs a gallon, the cost of flying is prohibitive for alot of people. anybody that voted to keep the present commie administration can pat themselves on the back for keeping gas prices high for along time!!! the economy, 50 seaters are being pulled down quickly, theircost per seat mile doesn't justify them anymore. whole airlines are being shut down, ie., Comair. lots of guy's and gals have left the country to make a living, but i believe, many will return when the hiring starts cause I personally, would not want to live in china or saudia arabia for the rest of my career. make a killing overseas (ex-pat) then come back and pick up a US job. again, the present admin is put the growth of this country last to social programs, ie, european like where double digit unemployment is the norm. expect that here. this means US carriers will continue to shrink their domestic and I'ntl systems requireing fewer and fewer pilots as the old ones retire. also, ALPA has vowed to fight the 65 retirement rule. I for one, will be fighting against that rule because i need the couple of extra years to fund my retirement.
honzanl
honza nl 1
gas prices are high because you print dollars, dollars are worth nothing then and so the oil sellers want more low-value dollars for their product
but that's typical US thinking: to have the God given right for cheap fuel
well, wake up, China also wants the oil and has the currencies to pay for it, they don't need to print it like your FED does...
and Europe double-digit unemployment? we have here 6%, whereas true US unemployment rate is about 18% (yes, you can delete people out of the statistics when they have no right on welfare anymore or have given up searching, but unemployed is unemployed, no matter what statistics you use to hide it...)
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
Holly Molly you just described inflation. Could it be that the government is the source of inflation. Give that man a twinkie
gearup328
Peter Steitz 2
Mark, after today, there are no more Twinkies! No more high paying pilot jobs either. "Twink"! They're gone!
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
No more Twinkies, no more Wonder Bread. Iron fortified if my childhood memory is correct. Obama promised change , but I never figured it would come to this. Came across a " copy cat recipe " for Twinkies just last week. Don't have a mold though.
honzanl
honza nl 1
and this government is not coming from another planet, you voted for them...
boschpilot
boschpilot 1
Didn't vulture capital just shut down the twinkie business? ;)
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
Wrong again. I tried to change the course of this government. Too many others disagreed with me
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
I guess we disagree on who and what shut down Hostess Bakery
honzanl
honza nl 1
wrong again too :) most spending and debts in the last 3 decades was by Rep. And it is not really a matter of Dem. or Rep.; essentially they are in this field just as bad, each in their own way. The fundamental thing is: recessions are good. They cut out 'dead wood', and higher interest rates that would be normal when you have huge budget deficits force you to think what is a good investment, and what is not. They stimulate saving instead of lending and spending. Remember: in the 19th century the US had I think 19 recessions, and the result was the US ended that century as a world power. Now politicians want to prevent a recession, print money, and keep interest rates too low (by letting the FED buy the bonds no investor wants to buy anymore...). They create bubbles this way, and by giving away money for free stimulate people to speculate and take risks they else never would take. And this way companies stay alive artifically. And besides: M.R. wanted to cut taxes even more, making deficits thus bigger (he wants Reaganomics, and history shows what a mess that created for the deficits...); and yes: US citizens seem to be penny wise pund foolish: lower your tax so you have no money to build decent dikes, and Katrina and Sandy showed then that the aftermath costs were even higher to clear the mess, and then you have a) spent more money in the end, and b) still have no dikes, that adds costs only more...
So my humble advice: get some decent politicans, and then I don't mean the ones you now have :) (yes, we in Europe also lack them, I know :) ! )
boschpilot
boschpilot 1
Hi Mark, I didn't mean to touch on a sore subject. I was just trying to make light of the commentary because of the the political direction it was going in. Anyway, a business shouldn't be allowed to operate the way that the RJAA rallies for. Alternatively and hypothetically, if your political change you voted for came through and reduced lower income benefits like food stamps how would that affect our less than fortunate FO friends flying jets in the regionals? Hrmm... perhaps you are a lot older and don't know anyone who fits that criteria.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 2
No offense taken. My original comment was to honza ni who whether he knew it or not very accurately described government caused inflation. "Give that man a Twinkie" is a phrase from back in the day. Just a cheap reward for being right. I admitted to being over 65 in a previous post to Preacher and don't pretend to understand how food stamps or in my state " Independence Cards " work. Here, you have to be below the poverty line to get any assistance, I don't know how other states work. Nope I don't know anyone who fits the criterion.

I am no fan of unions nor the current President. The Teamsters put my company out of business demanding 2 teamsters on a truck. Not one Teamster and one helper, but two teamsters and the shop steward had to be issued a car so he could check the drivers on job sites. In '83 labor on the truck was costing over 30.00 plus the truck and equipment. I don't talk about either. I'm not happy with the way the election finalized, but good or bad that's the way it is for the next 4 years.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
Not to be a smart ass, but when I went to the politician store they were out of good ones. :-) I have never mentioned Republicans nor Democrats and that diatribe would warrant it's own blog site. This is an aviation site and politics has a limited application here. I am going to walk away from this thread and wonder how we got here. HoHos, Twinkies, Cupcakes and Wonder Bread are gone but not forgotten.

Meanwhile, the airlines are short pilots and won't pay them. I guess they are going to be short on pilots for the foreseeable future until they figure out simple economics.
gearup328
Peter Steitz 1
I agree Mark. This board has nothing to do with politics. We are aviators and that's that. I was and still am a big fan of ALPA but not in regard to politics. Safety was my expertise and they excel there. Big government didn't cause a shortage, if there really is one. This is inherent in this industry that's run by greed, ego and crooks.

[This poster has been suspended.]

mattdavis
mattdavis 6
Why does the government need to limit the number of ATP certificates?
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 3
Because Phil said so!!!

[This poster has been suspended.]

onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 2
most of the ones that are hardcore about flying have already caught flights to places like India....The ones still here are focusing on other things like going back to school for something else...The last instructor I flew with is just waiting to be hired as a nurse.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 3
I think 45K is a fair/more realistic figure.

[This poster has been suspended.]

THRUSTT
THRUSTT 4
Phil, I want to work for your airline
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 2
it would be great while it last...lol
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
Phil is right on this one...
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
they have to stay competitive....I am all for higher pay but an airline can't sustain that type of payout without raising the cost of the tickets that only the top of the top income level can afford to fly....There is just not enough people in those tax brackets to keep any airline going and the ones in those upper tax brackets already own their own planes.
mpradel
Marcus Pradel 1
500K? I want to work for your airline..

Sounds like a great place to build some hours before YOU go broke and I can take my ratings elsewhere!

1500 hrs PIC assumes 1 year of initial Flight training (250 hrs), 1 & 1/2 years of initial Experience @ 800hrs/year.. and some classroom time along with the flying.

That 1st type rating costs your employer a LOT of money, other than restricting 1st year wages, how do you expect that to be paid back?

Doctors pay back their own College loans!
teix62
Michael Teixeira 1
If there truly is a pilot shortage. Only the airlines that are financially strongest will survive and the others will go under. Pax tickets will go up. Less choices, and more cost.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
Yeah but if they pay that much, management won't be able to afford the high priced bbq's with the union rep.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 2
If they payed that much; screw a union......lol.....you can deal with a lot of bs for 500k