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Delta Air Lines will not delay its 2018 deliveries of CSeries planes from Canada's Bombardier Inc

ingediend
 
the carrier's chief executive said on Thursday, following an anti-dumping complaint by Boeing Co against the jets. (www.yahoo.com) Meer...

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TorontoJeff
Jeff Phipps 12
If I was Delta C.E.O. I would remind Boeing not to interfere with the airline's ability to purchase these planes. As Delta takes delivery of their first A350, they should remind Boeing that there are other manufacturers that Delta and all the other airlines can go to.

canuck44
canuck44 3
Delta has a big order pending for 737-900ER's. Replacing them with the A-321LR would send Boeing a message as you suggested and give Delta a single aisle trans-Atlantic aircraft to replace their 757's in smaller markets.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 2
Shhhhh...don't give Edward Bastian, their CEO, any ideas..LOL..ohh and they are already consider using the CS300 as a trans-Atlantic for the smaller routes..
toolguy105
toolguy105 -2
Boeing is objecting to CS500 being sold at below cost. Dumping and selling at below cost are two different things. If it cost $33M to assemble and you sell it for $19M that is dumping because you have not recouped your raw cost. Selling below cost is selling something between your raw cost and your list price. I sold product below cost every day but we never dumped product on the market. Bowing is also objecting to the Governmental subsidy the Canadian has propped Bombardier up with when this Aircraft, which until the Swiss bought some could not sell and the company was about to go under.

BY the way Boing has taken the development cost of the 787 series and spread them out over other series. This has given them the ability to develop what will be the 789 and the variants of the 737MAx series. The 787 series is now selling at a profit and still below list for orders large enough to qualify for discounts.

I have no problem with the CS500 or the other variant. Bombardier has built a fine aircraft. Problem was and remains it to long to develop, major cost overruns which almost put the entire company in to bankruptcy and still may. The Canadian government had no choice but to bail them out for they are one of Canada's' largest employers. The bailout amounts to a subsidy no different the n when we bailed out the auto industry. The WTO protects against government subsidies.

Subsidies' are the same problem I have with Airbus. The governments of France, Germany and England invested heavily in the organization of Airbus and continued through the development and sale of the first Aircraft. Those governments are still heavily involved in Airbus operations. How do you compete fairly if the playing field is not level.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 4
There is no CS500..at least not yet...Boeing has also received major government backing in the past and continues to do so everyday...Taking the price that Delta paid for the craft and the number of craft sold, it looks as thou Bombardier sold them about $8 mil each below actual price they normally sell at...if you buy something in bulk, you expect a discount, and that isn't dumping or selling below costs!
It's funny listening to Boeing belly ache but in the meantime, what looked like a football play, Boeing put a block on United's looking at the C-Series by selling them 737-700's for about $22 mil each, a 75% discount..I'm sure it cost Boeing more than 22 mil to make the 737!
toolguy105
toolguy105 -1
The current list price for a 737-700 is &82.6M. If Boing Keystones there pricing as most manufactures do they made $2.6M on the sale of the -700 to United. That is gross profit over raw cost to purchase and assemble the aircraft. That does not include overhead costs which is a fixed cost assigned to each assembly after the production costs then profit is added and that is then Keystone.

One other thing we don't know about Bowing or any of the plane manufactures is how the sell their planes. Does assembly sell the plane to sales then sales sells them to the airlines. How many times does this plane change hands in house adding cost(overhead) and profit) before it reaches the final sale.

That new car that might be sitting in the drive way that might cost upward of $35,000. It changed hands 3 times minimum before you even see it. Manufacturing sells the car to the company. The company sells it to a region. The region then sells it to the distributor who sells it to you. Along the way cost and profit is added. In the end all the profit ends up back at HQ. SO the actual cost of the $35,000auto is somewhere in the range of $6K to $8K.

The list price on the C series says they are selling below cost to assemble. I've been in manufacturing g for 40 years there are few if any tricks I haven't seen and this one says subsidy and boing doe snot get any U.S. Government subsidy.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 3
You are telling me that selling the 70 jets to United at $22mil a pop made Boeing money??..BS..it costs a heck of a lot more than $22mil to build the 737 factoring in everything...that, to me, is dumping because United was also looking at the C-Series and Boeing wanted to block it...all aircraft manufactures lose money on their craft the 1st few years..Boeing lost almost $27mil an aircraft the first few years of the 787 and chances are may never see a profit in it..Airbus is the same way...so what if Bombardier sold the Delta units at $71mil USD...they didn't dump them...and that BTW is for the smaller CS100, Delta is paying more for the options to get the CS300.
And don't hand me that crap Boeing doesn't get any government subsidies...in 1 instance, November 2016, Boeing got slapped hard by WTO for illegal susidies!
n914wa
Mike Boote 1
A part of this story that keeps being overlooked is when Delta ordered the CS100 from Bombardier, Boeing had made an offer to Delta. That offer was a mix of used E190's they had currently, and 717's at some point in the future. Boeing never offered the 737-700 to Delta as they did with United. That serves as evidence that Boeing had nothing to offer comparable to the CS100.
ianmcdonell
ian mcdonell 1
Boeing = do what I say not what I do
pilot62
Scott Campbell 1
THE 37-700's price of 22 million or whatever doesn't even matter, because so many larger 37's and wide bodies are sold to United - SO Boeing's Ultimate profit is unknown but the sales technique is fairly clear :)
toolguy105
toolguy105 -3
The C Series is a plane I was looking forward to flying on. If it is true they were dumped at a below cost price to Delta then this is another

Delta does not have a big presence in Canada. The people making that plane will Air Canada, Jazz and West Jet among others of Canadian airlines. Delta gains nothing from those that build this plane; whereas a Boeing plane is built or assembled if you wish here in the lower 48 by people whose earnings could be used to travel on the planes they build. Economics 101 says to spend your money at home where it turns more often making fro a better economy.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 6
They were not dumped at below cost...Swiss airlines, Air Baltic, Korean Air, Quantas et all do not have a huge presence in Canada either, but Swiss and Air Baltic love their C-Series that they have taken delivery of.
The argument also, Boeing doesn't make a craft in the C-Series neighborhood so why are they throwing a fit..and I do not see them going after Airbus when Delta, United and American bought Airbus craft..Delta just took first delivery of it's new A350-900!
P.S. Bombardier does have a very good presence in the US with manufacture facilities and testing facilities.
TorontoJeff
Jeff Phipps 8
I have a couple of problems with your "logic". Economics 101 would suggest as a company you buy the equipment that best serves your needs when providing a service to your customers. Let the communist countries (the very that are left) only by state produced goods, rather than the best product for the job. Planes are now globally produced commodities. You can't build a plane without suppliers from all over the world, including the U.S. Pratt & Whitney, Zodiak etc are all in the US supplying Bombardier. Please take a look at airframe.com

The next point is the fact that they consider selling below cost equates to dumping. That is simply not true in the aircraft business because virtually every new plane is below cost until the development costs are recouped. Do you think the 787 or A380 were sold at a profit for launch customers. Hell they're still being sold at a loss.

Boeing is crying foul simply because the CSeries is a good product and if they go to a CS500, Boeing will have to compete with another manufacturer. Boeing has tons of subsidies but then decries when anyone else does.
sg413
Steve Geraci 0
Boeing says that Bombardier and Airbus are subsidized with government help. If the subsidies went away and they could not develop aircraft and compete, they would go bankrupt and out of business. That would leave Boeing as a monopoly. It could be subject to being broken up, probably into military and commercial. Could it's commercial business survive at that point? Would that make the commercial business attractive to others to invest in possibly reviving Bombardier and Airbus? How would the airlines feel about that?
paulgilpin1953
paul gilpin 4
i'm shocked.
do you mean to tell me that those air force 1 planes that sold for $4billion US, really didn't cost $4billion US to make?
i'm shocked, i tell you, shocked.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 2
Boeing keeps opening its yap saying that basically it doesn't get subsidies, it is going to make a whole slew of folks ticked off..if you see my comment above, the WTO already slapped them upside the head back in November for taking illegal subsidies...Boeing takes subsidies all the time and dumps aircraft..as I said earlier, it costs a lot more than $22 mil to manufacture a 737 after all costs are taken into affect

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