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LEARJET 35 CRASH Teterboro NJ

ingediend
 
A Learjet 35 just crashed on approach to KTEB - Tail # N452DA http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N452DA (www.reuters.com) Meer...

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golfbum971
Bryan McKee 26
The FO on this flight was a friend of mine. Reading the reports and watching the videos is a bit tough to do. Aviation is a profession that gives greatly but when it takes away it takes away greatly and often it takes away great people. This is the risk we take every time we step into the cockpit but we do it willingly and professionally because its something we love to do. My friend was no exception to that, he just simply loved to fly. So to both of the crew may you rest in piece and forever fly high and with Godspeed.
bbabis
Bill Babis 11
Well said Bryan. Every loss in mourned, much more the loss of a friend. This site is full of great people and they come here to not only discuss current aviation events but to add their knowledge and also learn. Some of that free knowledge and learning may help prevent the future loss of acquaintances, friends, and family in this unforgiving endeavor we call aviation.
mnflagg1980
Marty Flagg 8
Bryan, very sorry for you losing your friend, and the Co-P/ .
gordbz
Gord Boisvert 3
Bryan, I'm so sorry for the loss of your friend and his co-pilot. As you say, aviation gives greatly, but at times takes away greatly. Such a tragic loss...

skey97
sherry key 1
I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 19
Flown that ILS 06 circle 01more times than I can remember in everything from Lear to a G5 and you have to do it just right every time. There is a liltte thing called "illusions created by drift" and I'm guessing the winds were out of the NNW around 40kts at 1500'. Very unfortunate.
bbabis
Bill Babis 10
I think you hit it Highflyer. Control was lost well above the surface where the winds and gusts are usually much stronger. From the tower's remark asking when the lear was going to start its turn, the circle may have been started late and the aircraft overbanked at too slow of speed for the gusty conditions.
Very tragic. RIP
vholtpilot
Victoria Holt 3
This flight was an empty leg on a 135 airplane. Quite possibly, the 20 year old co-pilot was the PF. IF he was late beginning the circling turn, as the ATC transmission suggests, and he was carrying extra airspeed for the windy conditions, he would have had to make a steeper turn than normal to compensate for the late entry to the circling maneuver and the extra airspeed. The Lear 35 has very short and sweptback wings. When banking any wing, a portion of the lift vector is not vertical. The lift vector stays perpendicular to the wing, while the gravity vector remains constant, therefore banking too steeply causes loss of lift. The photo taken moments before the crash shows the nose of the airplane to be nearly vertical to the ground with one wing higher than the other. Classic stall spin. Not enough altitude to recover. Tragic. God rest their souls. Bryan McKee, I am so, so sorry for your loss.
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 2
Good explanation Victoria, but 13 degrees is not much sweep. However, the PIC should have been monitoring the approach much closer and in the end if you are out of position, just go around.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
The 20 year old Co-pilot's 33 years old. Experience, not age makes the airman...
vholtpilot
Victoria Holt 1
I stand corrected. The co-pilot was 33 years old
CloudyIFR
Curtis Suter 2
I wonder what the flap setting was?
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
Hopefully 20 or full...
KevinBrown2016
Kevin Brown 4
UPDATE: Audio recording from the tower - at around the 20 min mark you can hear communication with 452 delta alpha - at 21:48 another aircraft reports "Learjet crashed"

Communication with the doomed aircraft seemed normal up to the last second

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kteb/KTEB1-May-15-2017-1900Z.mp3
johnctags
John Tagliabue 5
I work about a mile from the crash site. Strong gusts out of the NW all day. On my lunch break I watched KTEB traffic struggling on approach. This plane flew right over our building seconds before the crash.
WeatherWise
WeatherWise 2
Pilots voice sounded like everything was fine. Judging by the winds maybe wind shear played a role?
bbabis
Bill Babis 2
The pilot talking was probably the PNF and it sounds like he was trying to make everything sound fine for a PF that may have lost situational awareness and was seriously behind the airplane. Missed radio calls and a late circling maneuver show this crew was not on their A game. If the CVR is useable it may show a different story.
jgrasso
John Grasso 2
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Lear 35 Crash KTEB

Lear 35 Crash at KTEB on final on Monday afternoon 5/15/17

http://pix11.com/2017/05/15/small-plane-crashes-in-nj-near-teterboro/
jjones8468
JAMES JONES 1
My thoughts and prayers are with the family (personal and professional) of the ones who were lost. - GOD SPEED!
ah6oy
Jim DeTour 1
Ground observation mentioned was the plane was tilted to one side. "“The plane was seen listing to its left side, so obviously there was some sort of malfunction,” Cleary said." Maybe with extra airspeed on the approach to deal with the gusts a slip was tried and the fuselage blanking the downwind wings lift took them down. A gust can extend the blanked out area real quick. Sad tragedy.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
You don't slip a jet. I don't think you could go by a ground observation, especially from an excited non-aviation person. Just think of the classic, "the engine stalled" comments...
Having flown that circling approach probably a few hundred times, given the circumstances, I'd say a wing lost lift due to an overbank...
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 2
gearup328
Peter Steitz 2
A slip at low speed with full flaps is a no-no. You might find yourself inverted and headed to the ground. If you misjudged and had to try this-----go around and come back.
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 1
Agreeing with Thrust, it also would be in a left bank due to the fact that is the only way to get to 01 from a right base.
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 1
ooops, meant left base. My bad.
ah6oy
Jim DeTour 1
Some how he did get stalled. Video of the impact from a security camera in this news story.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pTqMARtju0
Sad day.
gearup328
Peter Steitz 1
Very sad indeed to hear of any loss---my condolences. Maybe this is one reason that at my former airline, we did not do circling approaches. They were even taken out of our checkrides. A true circling approach and landing is really precise and in a Lear, has to be perfect. They were probably under Part 91/135 rules and could try anything that was legal with their company.

A circle to land in the AIM can be any approach that is not runway specific such as a VOR A which does not specify a runway and allows landing on any runway when cleared.

Now days with RNAV(GPS) approaches at hundreds of airports that are all straight in there is no need to circle. The New York area is way too congested in my opinion.

DCA is a good example. There is no circling approach into DCA but tower may clear you to "circle to land" in VMC conditions if you have the runway in sight. Other approaches not aligned with the landing runway are all LDA approaches. LDA RW19 for example. TEB has no published circling approach so they were test pilots.

"Fly the jet" and if things don't look good---go around. I believe wind, bank and airspeed were against them. Aviation is beautiful and also brutal. God bless them and families.
bcanderson
Brian Anderson 1
Unfortunately, there is no published approach to Runway 1, RNAV or otherwise. You fly the ILS 6 approach and circle. That's the routine at Teterboro. If there is a wastern component to the wind you have to already have it in your mind that things are going to happen very fast in the downwind-base-final phase, especially in a Category C or D airplane. And if you try and give yourself some extra space the tower WILL bang on you regarding Newark.

If you've flown the procedure before, you have a great advantage with being able to use the stadium and antenna towers as landmarks. You need to stay north of the tallest antenna, and that's also kind of uncomfortable because it's tough to stay visual with it.

Not saying it's a good situation, because it isn't. It just is.

And as for airlines never doing such things, they've done it routinely at MDW for years even after the RNAV 22L was published - Fly the ILS 31C and circle to 22L. You do have a little more room at MDW though.


I don't understand your statement "TEB has no published circling approach so they were test pilots". Circling minimums are clearly published on the chart and the weather was well above them.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
I think he may be talking about a stand alone circle, not a straight in approach with a circling option.
I'm confused also since circling mins. would be published.
bcanderson
Brian Anderson 1
Well, there is the VOR/DME B published as a "stand alone" circle at TEB.

There had seemed to be an inference that perhaps the crew was "trying" something inappropriate or unwise and "now days" there is no need to circle.

The point to my response is that there is no straight in approach to Runway 1 at all, and that the procedure they were flying was not "test pilot" territory but, rather, TEB standard operating procedure.

TEB can be tricky, operating there requires a high level of SA and a thorough brief on procedures before even getting in the airplane. For instance, if you're cleared for any of the published departure and you take off, pull the wheels, and then take the plate out from under the stack thinking "OK, what have we got here?" you've already hopelessly busted the procedure.
gearup328
Peter Steitz 1
To Brian Anderson and THRUSTT I stand corrected. There is a circle only approach but that's not what they were flying. I'll retract my statement that they were test pilots. That was a bad comment.

I will confess---I've never been into TEB. I consider the entire New York area to be a hazard. However, I can see exactly what you are saying. There are three huge airports and traffic everywhere.

Several other approaches also have circling minimums. However, they were in VMC so minimums were not a factor. They were flying a side step not a true circling as would be necessary in IMC.

Am I wrong that they were based out of TEB? They knew all the SA required?

As I stated before, DCA used a similar tactic. Flying the ILS RW1 and over the Arlington bridge, you were asked if you had RW33 in sight and were cleared to land RW33. Some pilots said you can't overfly the Marine Barracks on the east side of the Potomac? Yes you can. There is no restriction. So don't try and keep it in tight. You can widen the turn to final and not overbank. In IMC, they hardly ever did this. PIT and CLT also did the sidestep.

Concerning MDW, I have flown there many, many times and never had to circle. It was almost every landing on RW31 and sometimes RW13. Probably because the terminal was on east side and it was a quick taxi to the gate.

About circling in IMC? Maybe Part 135 guys still do that. I flew Part 121 and that was removed from our Ops manual and we never did them. Circle to land in VMC is not a true circle. Look in the AIM and see how restrictive an IMC circle really is.

I suspect these guys began the sidestep too late, got hit with a strong west wind, which they knew, over banked and got a little too slow. Can I assume they had a glass cockpit with radar altimeter, wind, ground speed? All the bells and whistles?

NTSB will conclude it was pilot error and failure to control your aircraft. We are sometimes pushed into a position where we are beyond control. That's aviation. As I said "fly the jet" and talk to ATC and FAA later. Ignore the "barking" from Newark. Gotta do what you gotta do. Sorry if I rambled too much.
MikeMohle
Mike Mohle 1
Glass in a 35??? Not bloody likely at all.
gearup328
Peter Steitz 1
Thanks Mike. I have been in a 35 but it had analog gages too. I thought maybe updates?
bcanderson
Brian Anderson 1
Not sure why it has to be IMC to minimums before it's officially a circling approach, but oh well.

My experience with that same maneuver they were on is that ATC will not hesitate to try and reach through the radio and fly your airplane for you, and you just can't allow it. You can hear it in this case when what sounds like a different controller comes on at the last second saying "You gonna start that turn?". Did the PF crank in a little more bank, sneak in some rudder because he felt pressured? Just don't know. Hopefully there will be good information on the radar tracks and the CVR.

It would be interesting to know what triggered the go-around about a minute and a half before the crash.

Another place where there is an even crummier situation is Chicago Executive (PWK) with a north wind.
gearup328
Peter Steitz 1
Again, "fly the jet". Never let ATC come thru the radio and fly for you. Good advice Brian. I'm sure those controllers are losing some sleep with doubts about what happened.

Lose an engine right after V1 (V1 cut), don't say anything. Climb at V2 to a safe altitude, then advise ATC you are declaring an emergency. .

I missed the part about the go-around. I need to listen again.

The sidestep is my opinion and if it is called a circle, so be it.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
Be Careful about the macho pilot stuff guys. True ATC can't fly your airplane but they know how it should be flown and expect it accordingly. Using your V1 engine failure procedure at TEB will most likely kill you and maybe hundreds more before you decide to give ATC a clue. If you ever need help, speak up immediately, they are more than willing to do everything they can to off load your other responsibilities while you concentrate on the pilot sh1t. Use CRM to it's fullest.
gearup328
Peter Steitz 2
No Bill, it wouldn't. This is not "macho". You fly the SID or your clearance and climb single engine. Then you talk to ATC. You handle YOUR problem first. The Sully experience, as an example, was a bit different in that they became a glider in one second. They HAD to tell ATC immediately. "fly the jet" first. Notice that all help given by ATC was to no avail? You certainly have known about the age old phrase---"aviate, navigate, communicate"? What's the first word in that phrase?

A catastrophic failure or fire might be handled differently. It depends but every flight manual I have ever read stated that emergencies cannot all be treated exactly the same. One thing is certain----Get yourself to a safe altitude, perform your memory items, run the checklist, declare the emergency, in that order and the airspace is yours. This is where ATC will really help.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
Many SID requirements cannot be met after an engine failure. ATC will not assume an emergency if you fail to follow the SID. The phrase we use is not step by step. You don't want to aviate into the side of a building because you haven't got to step two yet. We use it to keep from forgetting to do any of them. Aviating itself encompasses the other two. In the engine failure after V1 situation, I would communicate ASAP to have ATC in the loop and relieve the navigate part. In Sully's case, sure ATC was not able to restart an engine for him but, they did clear airspace, offer options, and notify first responders and other authorities.

I would rethink your last sentence. Wouldn't it be much easier knowing the airspace was all yours and you were being watched over while dealing with all the heads down checklist stuff? I can talk and fly at the same time. I choose to handle MY problem first by making it less difficult. Why wait?
gearup328
Peter Steitz 2
All I said was climb at V2 to a safe altitude and then use ATC to clear the airspace. I would say most business and commercial jets will climb on one engine and comply with the departure. If you can't. then it's up to the pilot to decide when to declare. When you declare, ATC will begin their checklist and want information. They initially get in the way. Aviate first.
bcanderson
Brian Anderson 1
Disagree. Once he's cleared to circle (sidestep?) the airspace is his. Fly the airplane within it's maneuvering envelope for the speed and configuration.

If you break off north of the TORBY NDB then fly just south of the stadium that's when ATC will begin barking about Newark, but flying south of the stadium is fine and you can't bust airspace as long as you stay north of the antenna. Look at the VFR chart. Assuming N52DA lost it turning final and the impact being only a half a mile from the end of the runway it was just too tight - especially with the wind.

Good video of that exact procedure being flown (and in a Lear 35 even) Make your turn just south of the stadium and you give yourself some room: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWodeB26I3s
gearup328
Peter Steitz 1
Coincidence that I just watched this video this AM while surfing on youtube.
bbabis
Bill Babis 0
Not sure what you disagree with Brian. Maybe you meant to reply to a different post. Still, my conversation with Peter Steitz has you in mind also. Your posts read like you have a confrontational approach to ATC and handle them on a need to know bases. In an emergency, outside of a crew member, ATC is your best resource in CRM. If you're single pilot, they're what you need. Never give up your PIC authority but bring them onboard ASAP. Its amazing what they can do for you when you work together. In 40+ years of flying I've had 4 declared emergencies with superb help from ATC each time and have never once filled out a form or had follow up contact with the FAA. Contrary to popular belief, they are here to help you, especially when you really need it.
bcanderson
Brian Anderson 1
What I disagree with is the "macho pilot" comment. I'm also at a complete loss as to how a thorough situational awareness of the lateral and vertical limits of the airspace you have been cleared to maneuver in is "a confrontational approach to ATC". I would think "co-operative approach to ATC" would be a better description.

The good men and women working approach and tower there operate that airspace on a daily basis and I'm there once, maybe twice a year, but it seems to me ATC would actually appreciate pilots operating in that complex airspace who have familiarized themselves with it's boundaries prior to flying the procedure they've been cleared to execute?

Perhaps local control there feels it necessary to help (I won't say "bark at" anymore) some pilots with the procedures at TEB because they encounter a fair number of pilots who need such help?

I don't know.

Maybe a controller can chime in and help us out?
westfly
kyle estep 1
The entirety of New York area airports and the airspace need to be rebuilt. Yesterday JFK should not have been running 90 minute delays with light winds and clear skies, but East winds did it anyway because of LGA existing... it's time to close LGA and rebuild JFK to be like ATL or ORD. That would not only reduce delays, it'd add capacity at the same time... but LGA MUST GO!
soapsud
mike bailey 1
Asymmetrical flaps?...if they chose to use full or partial and were not configured prior to vings this is where they would be moving flaps,,,just a thought. Certainly a sad situation, prayers for the families.
mrmusicman1260
Michael Sharritt 1
Wind Gusts reported to be about 40 mph at the time.
chrisrobey
CHRIS ROBEY -4
This is just lateral thinking, but maybe either a bird strike or even a drone strike on the nose may have triggered the Lear's stick pusher at the very low altitude. While the wind gusts were fairly strong going up to 36knots out of the NNW, that's not too much of a crosswind component onto runway 01.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 5
More than likely it's the circling maneuver that did it. A lot of people don't start the turn and compensate for the wind accordingly. In gusty conditions, no extra speed and also a fear of the antennae by the stadium also contribute to things going downhill. Also for someone not flying there on a regular basis, it could be a little tough to make out the beginning of 01 during the circle...
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
Lotta ignorant Trolls on here downvoting you for merely commenting...
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 1
If memory serves, I believe the AOA on both sides have to agree on data input before the pusher fires. Having hit a bird on takeoff in a Lear years ago, and the right side AOA split the bird into pieces which went through the right engine turning up a few fan blades but that was all there was to it.
bentwing60
bentwing60 1
Yep on the AOA's and the pusher, and having done this approach a time or who knows in Lears, C650's and Challengers, if the antennas by the stadium wouldn't encourage you to turn a little early I don't what would. For a flat land airport this one has always pegged my "fun" meter.
MikeMohle
Mike Mohle 1
Fun is the not the word I use at TEB! The Circle to 01 and antennas are just one issue, the departure procedures and "fun" avoiding the hospital is another....
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
Personally, I never really thought there were issues at TEB apart from the delays.
If published procedures are followed and solid airmanship is applied, as in the circle for one, the outcome should never be in question.
I operated in TEB for 20 years, and could never understand how people busted the TEB SID off of 24. It's briefed and flown, runway hdg. to 1500, right turn 280. However numerous people continued on runway heading towards EWR.
This is not directed at you.
I've operated VFR in jets in and out of there, going up the sound past LGA, just having good SA makes a big difference.
A lot of people knock TEB, ASE gets it's fair share too. Fly the procedure, have good SA, and apply good airmanship, the only thing after those that should bring you down is an extremely bad mechanical. I've had rudder trim runaways, jammed elevators, and I'm still here typing... RIP to those guys!!!
bentwing60
bentwing60 1
If you spent 20 years based at TEB, your "fun" meter was based on that level of experience! I guess you knew Mary Ann at Meridian and everything it was before that. She had the multiple "been there done that" pins on her vest. I flew out of ADS forever and in the 80's, 90's, and early 2's it was regularly the busiest single runway GA destination in the country. Never came close to TEB in intensity for the guys that ain't "been there, done that". And I left TEB more than once on the no we don't have one cause it ain't published in "Jepps" VFR departure on 19. It was in the briefing room. My point? Most folks level of SA is experience related and TEB is a handful, as is a Learjet.
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 2
31 years flying in and out of TEB and the only thing that made it interesting was when the ILS 06 was inop and you flew the NDB approach.....you have no idea how many flights missed and where they were when they went missed, everywhere and anywhere! I admired the guys in the tower and app control, boy they could move traffic.
circle2land
Ca Wy 1
Thanks for the "boy they could move traffic." comment
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
Are you a TEB controller? I think I remember two with ATP's...
TorstenHoff
Torsten Hoff 1
Or maybe it was simultaneous kite ingestion in both engines.
chrisrobey
CHRIS ROBEY 0
Thanks guys...It's been eight years since I last flew the Lear 35. Am in serious need of a refresher ground school...

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

THRUSTT
THRUSTT 11
If we can't discuss on here, why are you even on???
jet4ang
ANGELO DROUTSAS 5
This isn't a criminal trial here.
allench1
allench1 2
Greg i see you have been on flightaware 4 years and this is your only post? You should have already known why and how this operates. During all these yeas of post many, including myself that have learned procedures,lessons and knowledge from the many thousands of post, who knows maybe even saved some lives. have to give a shout out to a friend who earned his solar wings, Preacher1, aka Wayne Bookout.we miss u old buddy.
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 1
Then you are on the wrong site.

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